Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman Bruce Billson interview with Vivienne Ryan.
Small Business Connections TV
Subject: Role of ASBFEO, dispute resolutions, Tax Concierge Service
Vivienne Ryan
Hello and welcome to Small Business Connections TV. Today, I'm delighted to be sitting down with the wonderful Bruce Billson from ASBFEO while we're here at Marvel Stadium at this beautiful business conference. Tell us a little bit about it.
Bruce Billson
Well, ASBFEO is the Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman. That would be me. We do a few different things. We help resolve disputes because for a small business in a commercial dispute, particularly in the federal jurisdiction, the idea of going to the Federal Court that's just not an option. It’s too long, it’s too expensive. We get in and try and resolve those disputes through alternative dispute resolution. From those 6500 cases a year we can spot patterns and that, and our other research, sees us advising government on how to make policies, programs, laws, better.
And then we also tell the story of small business, those two and a half million fantastic stories, hopefully showcasing those, inspiring others to join that journey and to energise enterprise.
Vivienne Ryan
So tell me, what are some of the most common claims that come through your doors?
Bruce Billson
The biggest one by quite a margin is payment disputes. So about 40% of the traffic we handle relates to payment disputes - someone not being paid in a timely way, a tightening in the economy sees more of that. And over COVID particularly, and post-COVID, certain contractual undertakings where people said we'll do X, Y and Z, but maybe part of that's not finished, someone doesn't pay, we get in and try and resolve those matters, keep relationships intact where we can, because many of these businesses want to keep dealing with the other party. But they want it sorted
Vivienne Ryan
I mean, it is really important for businesses to maintain their relationships with suppliers because without that maintenance then they can't actually operate as a going concern.
Bruce Billson
It's absolutely right. And Vivienne, you've touched on a key part of it, and it's relationships. Yes, keeping those relationships keeps business in business. But even some of the other areas we work on is where there's inherent power imbalances. It might be in the franchising area. Governments tend to put codes in place. That's where there's a power imbalance but they're trying to encourage the big parties and the small parties to play nice together. Many of those codes have a dispute resolution clause in them and we play a role in in facilitating that where there's inherent power imbalances. Potentially, I think franchising, the dairy industry, lots of people with moo juice but only a few processors. The oil industry, big oil companies, you know, retailers of motor fuel, those are the sorts of things and supply chains into the big supermarkets can be another one.
Vivienne Ryan
So tell me, what's your strike rate for success?
Bruce Billson
It's pretty high. It's pretty high because most people like problems to be solved. It's interesting, a lot of our success comes from not even getting directly involved. So at the first port of call, we try and equip small businesses to talk about what their dispute is and equip them with ways of raising it in a fashion that supports early resolution. That's a success, even though we haven't had to get directly involved.
Overwhelmingly, it's high 80s, but pleasingly, most people all say it was worthwhile. And some disputes we just can't resolve. We try and encourage people to engage in good faith. I mean, the only power I have is to be able to, well, notify, which is a name and shame power, where if parties don't approach it in good faith, I might say to the rest of the business community, hey, we've had this matter, this party, they played a very ugly game. We suggest you think twice.
So we flag that and say, look, do you really you want that? Maybe you’re better off engaging constructively. So that's the way we go about our business.
And then advise government on what we're seeing. If there’s recurring issues, it may be a problem with the regulatory environment, maybe a law’s not landing properly or as we've seen with areas like digital platforms, it just might be too hard when you have sites hacked. You know a platform takes down your site, but if that's your only channel to your customers, that can be really quite a catastrophic thing and we’ll get involved in trying to get things sorted and get people back up and online.
Vivienne Ryan
And how difficult is it for people to access? I mean, is it a labourious administration entry?
Bruce Billson
No, we are a very efficient, light touch and we want to get on with it. So for us, that first port of call is usually some tools, some know how and how they themselves might approach. We're not really dispute nannies. We're not the first people you turn to. We actually encourage people to try and sort things out themselves first. For two reasons. That's what businesses do and we encourage that and most businesses don't really want a third party involved.
Secondly, it helps to crystallise what the issue is. Now, you've been in business with your many business interests, your media interest, your hospitality business.
Vivienne Ryan
Have you been stalking me on LinkedIn?
Bruce Billson
Well, no. Look, for those that don't know, I had to introduce Vivienne last night at a gala event - the CommBank Small Business Young Heroes Awards. So you'd know from that range of business interests you have, that there is a risk that other things can get involved, like a dispute over a payment dispute or something to do with a contract might blow up. Oh, and by the way, you didn't treat me well here, let me tell you how bad this is. And people can sometimes lose sight of what the particular issue is. So by encouraging the parties to go as far and work it out as best they can, you really focus in on what the issue is and hopefully block out those extraneous issues that can impede a resolution.
Vivienne Ryan
And how long, on average, does the resolution process actually take?
Bruce Billson
Look, in some cases, we just don't know because if we get an initial contact and we provide that guidance, that self-help equipping of the party that's concerned, they might just go about their business and have it sorted very quickly. We don't hear back from them.
Where they come back and say, look, I've tried this, I didn't get a response, I'm getting shaded by the other party, then we may get involved.
For things that are really critical, let's use the digital service platform example. If you're on Marketplace and that's your only channel to your customers, getting that turned around quickly is really important. We can work that through sometimes within days. Others might take much longer. As long as people are engaging in good faith. They want to take a moment to think and reflect or to canvass what resolution options might be put on the table, we're okay with that. As long as they keep moving it forward and there's good faith engagement between the businesses we tend not to get too heavy handed.
There are some exemptions to that, though, some exceptions. Under the Franchising Code, there's certain trigger dates and timing. So we need to be party to that. And that's where we might push it along a bit more and say, look, you need to come back to us by a certain time, otherwise I'll just appoint a mediator and you need to turn up and get involved. So that's the various examples there.
Vivienne Ryan
And so with some people who might be listening to this interview and they're sitting there hesitantly about approaching you, what would you say to them?
Bruce Billson
Don't hesitate. I mean, we're there to help. We're an ally for small business. We are a problem solver. But we're also a concierge.
Vivienne Ryan
Concierge?
Bruce Billson
Yeah, we can’t solve every problem, but like a good hotel concierge, they might not be able to address a particular issue, but they know you can. Under the legislation I operate under, we don't duplicate the work of others. So if it's a dispute between, say, two Victorian based businesses, I'll work very closely with Lynda McAlary- Smith, Victorian Small Business Commissioner, and we'll make a warm referral to her or someone in another jurisdiction.
If it's something about a telecommunications service that's not connected in a timely way, the Telecommunications Industry Ombudsman's there. Might be something to do with Finance, AFCA, the Australian Finance Complaints Authority, are there as well.
So, so come to us. There's no wrong door coming to us. And if we can find an organisation better place to get an outcome for you, we will do that legwork. But, you know, reach out to us. We're here to help and we're an ally of enterprising men and women.
Vivienne Ryan
Amazing. And what's the costs?
Bruce Billson
The cost is ordinarily zero. That's right, zero. Governments fund our work because they see getting business back to business is far better than gumming up the economy with a small business going to the Federal Court over, you know, not having their deposit for a franchise opportunity refunded in a point in time if they've exercised their cooling off options.
You know, going to the Federal Court can maybe take two years. It can maybe cost you $200,000. And there's also the threat of you having to pay the costs of the other parties if you don't win. Now, that's really no solution for most small businesses. So, governments see value in us helping to resolve those things quickly.
There is one exception. We offer a Tax Concierge Service, so if you're a small or family business and you're really at a point of dispute with the Tax Office, you can contact us.
We can do one of three things. If we think there's a glaring clanger in something the Tax Office has done, it might be simply a matter of me ringing someone at the Tax Office saying, hey, I think you might have got this wrong, have another look at it. It may be, secondly, referring them to some of the internal review processes that the ATO offers.
Or thirdly, if they want to dispute a determination, they may be thinking of going to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal. Now we offer a service where a seasoned, experienced tax lawyer will have a look at your case. You put $100 on the table, we’ll fund the rest, and we'll get that tax expert to have a look and reality check whether you really have a dispute.
If there is solid grounds for you to appeal a decision, a determination of the Tax Office, we’ll also help onboard you into the AAT and prepare you so you can make your case as well as you can as a small and family business against, frankly, the behemoth that is the Tax Office.
Vivienne Ryan
Look, I have so many more questions I would love to ask you about that, particularly post COVID, where a lot of businesses in lots of different industries are struggling to make ends meet and in particular take on those payment plans that have been implemented during COVID. So I would love to talk to you more about it. Maybe we'll get you back on again soon. But in the meantime, I just want to say thank you so much for your insights and your wealth of information. And thank you for being on the show today.
Bruce Billson
Viv, fab, to be with you.