15 October 2024

TRANSCRIPT

Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman Bruce Billson interview with Leon Delaney.

Radio 2CC Canberra

Subject: growing number of small business disputes with big tech digital platform providers, Ghostbusters, John McEnroe, weaponised product takedowns and the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.

Leon Delaney

Well, apparently there's been a surge in small business disputes with big tech platforms. Terrible, isn't it? Those big tech platforms. The problem with big tech platforms is that if you have a difficulty with the big tech platforms, I can tell you this, it's very hard to actually talk to a real human being. That's the major challenge, actually getting to talk to a human being about the dilemma that you are facing in your dispute with your tech giant. You know, whether it's Facebook, you've advertised something on Marketplace, or you've promoted your business on Marketplace, or if Google has lost your listing, where you search your business and you can't find it. Who do you talk to? They don't have offices and personnel here to talk to. They just want you to complain online, and then they never respond to you. Nevertheless, we're kind of over a barrel, aren't we? I mean, if you want to advertise online, it's the only game in town, talking to the big tech companies Joining me now the Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman, Bruce Billson. Good afternoon.

Bruce Billson

Leon, fab to be with you, and you're in good early form, sir. You're spot on. I mean, what a novel idea, actually having a real human to speak to when all the usual bits of advice that are made available by the big tech platforms don’t get the problem resolved.

Leon Delaney

I know I've had this conversation with you before, Bruce, but many, many, many years ago, I think 30 years ago, I came up with this idea when recorded phone messages started to take over everywhere. I said, no, no. What we need to do is pass a law that makes it mandatory for any government agency, any large business, any corporation, to must have a real human being answering the phone to actually direct the caller to the relevant department or person to deal with their issue. 

It would fix customer service, and it would create employment. People actually getting a job being a receptionist once again, which might seem like it's no big deal, but it's an important job, and it's a job that can be rewarding. And yet here we have a world where they seem to be hell bent on eliminating people altogether. Bruce, I'm not happy about it. 

Bruce Billson

No, look, you're a visionary in your time. And I think it was not long after Ghostbusters was out and they were saying, ‘who you going to call’. We’re getting mildly close there. Not only are we getting involved in more and more cases, 86 per cent higher caseload coming our way with these big tech platforms. 

It's also at a time when you see governments talking about creating codes that have duties on these tech platforms to have cyber protections in place and to make sure that you're not hacked and therefore there's not a lot of financial loss. We're urging regulators and lawmakers to extend that further with actual dispute resolution requirements built into those codes, which we think should well include a chance to actually ring somebody once you go through the frequently asked questions and find that that's not working. On one of the digital platforms, it says if you're having trouble accessing your account, access your account to tell us you're having trouble accessing your account. Now to quote John McEnroe after a bad line call, you can't be serious!

So, we're looking for genuine internal dispute resolution, escalation points that once you get past the frequently asked questions you can actually talk to somebody, and when all else fails, you can have it made known that for business-to-business disputes, we're an option. And we're very active in dealing with these matters and can get good results if we have the right information and the right attitude with the big tech companies. 

Leon Delaney

Yeah, I remember that - you cannot be serious!

Bruce Billson

You can't be serious!

Leon Delaney

It was the US Open, I think. I’m not sure which event it was. 

Bruce Billson

I don't think it was the only time he did that. For listeners, John McEnroe used to be a very gifted athlete, a brilliant left-handed tennis player, but had a sort of incendiary sort of temperament.

Leon Delaney

A very short fuse.

Bruce Billson

I’m realising, given your appeal is to a much younger demographic than ourselves Leon, I thought I'd just explain to your listeners who John McEnroe is. 

Leon Delaney

He was the Nick Kyrgios of his day. 

Bruce Billson

What great documentary about him and his career. And thinking about John McEnroe - and let's bring this home to the topic that we were talking about - if he had his own line of sportswear and he didn't want to build physical shops or go and do arrangements with other retailers, he may choose, as many enterprising men and women these days choose, to have a digital presence. You go to these platforms where there's already customer eyeballs, so you don't have that marketing task. But there's also a lot of other comparisons that people could consider, and that means it's pretty sharp in their pricing, but that's one of the challenges. 

Yes, the eyeballs have been aggregated. There's an audience there. It's very sharp in terms of pricing, so there's no sloppy margins there unless it's something really unique that only you can offer. But the problem can be when those accounts then get hacked, you can't get into and control your own account. 

There might be things posted in your name that reflects badly on your business. Or worse still, not only can you not benefit from the sales that you hope to have - so there's that economic consequence - they might also tap into a credit card or some other payment facility you have linked to your account that helps you post and boost and advertise and promote your wares or have targeted promotions through that platform. Or you might find your credit card is being used to pimp bogus cryptocurrency and the like, so you're out of money there as well. So that's just some of the areas where we're urging greater care be taken, and we've actually got some tools to help businesses engage safely and effectively. 

Leon Delaney

One of the common frustrations I've heard from people is that they've set up some sort of online business and probably used either Facebook or Instagram or both as their platform. And they haven't been hacked or anything, but for whatever reason, they've posted something that the algorithm decided was offensive, and they've had their account suspended, or worse, even deleted, and they’re locked out and they can't get back into it, and the whole business just vanishes. And there's nobody to complain to. And the post that triggered the algorithm was completely innocent in the first place. The level of insanity here is frustrating beyond belief. 

Bruce Billson

That's just some of the examples. Let's explore it a bit further. 73 per cent, nearly three-quarters of the digital platform disputes that we're asked to assist with, are involving a Meta-owned platform. But of those, two-thirds of them are where an account's been hacked. So that's something to be alert to. But then of the other third, it could be examples like what you're describing. 

In Australia you might have appropriate approvals to sell a product, if that's into an international market you might not. It might pull the site down. There's something called the DMCA, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. For these digital platforms that are based in the US Congress has said, well, you can be around, but the risk of copyright theft is significant. So, if someone claims you've pinched their idea or you're breaching copyright, you've got to take that content down immediately, until such time as it's resolved. 

Now we've had some examples Leon, where overseas-based companies have been gaming that intended legal protection to take out very successful Australian online retailers with skin products and the like, where they’ve said, they’ve pinched by my intellectual property. And it's turned out to be a weaponised tactical manoeuvre to take a competitor out of the game. 

So that's another area where things can get quite tricky. And then even all the way through to things like Uber, where something hasn't turned out right. Is the driver responsible? Is the platform responsible? If it's Uber Eats, is the producer of the food responsible? That's where we get involved and try and get a resolution, get business back to business, and hopefully with relationships intact. 

Leon Delaney

Indeed, as always, Bruce, if people want more information about how they can help to protect themselves, you've got a vast array of resources available on your website, haven't you?

Bruce Billson

Yeah, jump on the website (www.asbfeo.gov.au). I mean, there's information about how to engage with social media securely. There's even advice, Leon, and we've talked about this before, where a business might not be particularly technologically savvy. Someone says to them, hey, we'll double your sales, get me as a digital marketing service provider. We'll search engine optimise, we'll create funky posts, we might even get an endorsement from Leon Delaney - my goodness.

And they're paying 800 bucks a month on the promise that things will double their sales. And it turns out not to be the case, because what they're actually selling is certain posts, activities, social media, content, not the outcome. And those relationships very often end in tears. We've got some advice on our website on how to make sure that doesn't happen to you as well. 

Leon Delaney

Fantastic, Bruce. Thanks very much for your time today.